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From_Hell| From_Hell 5/25/2018 13:59:54
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Edited by From_Hell at 5/25/2018 02:07 PM
Rongaulius replied at 5/25/2018 08:38 AM
Speed buff idea is brilliant.  There’s already one that applies after leaving combat, but it take ...

Concerning NOT LUMBURR/IGNIS:

Speed buffing traditional mages would make them kind of out of character. Plus if we speed up all the characters then which characters really are fast? You kind of need some slower characters to let the speed demons shine (irregardless of what I just said I still would like Krixi to have more mobility since her Ult is super reliant on it).

Omega, and Superman aren’t exactly slow XD and Ryoma, WW, Omen, etc are decent Junglers (just teasing I know what you mean).

Magic Valhein... I’ve seen some people do it, tried it once and fell face flat to a normal Valhein. I think if you just allow his ult to fire simultaneously he will be a bit stronger without breaking curves. I would be a bit worried if his S2 stun could fire simultaneously since infinite Stun Val is a thing if Val is REALLY lucky.

While Veera can yield sweet rewards, the risk I find to be higher than what I would put as Strong but not OP hero risk/reward. While she does high damage and her bats are a menace, her S1 skill is by far her weakest skill. I agree that her S2 has an annoyingly long stun time, but it’s not really the killer in her combo. I think if you reduced the range of her S3 a little to lengthen her S1 a decent bit she will have an easier time holding a lane instead of playing more of an Ambush Mage Assassin. I think she holds her own in teamfights but not alone against ranges with ridiculous movement speed/ranged attacks. I probably should just chalk this up as a weakness and count her as fair since, as you said, she is a FREE hero.

Gilder can have flicker, if his charge was any longer then Azzen’Ka/Alice/Xeniel would have their replacement.... (ok this was a bit exaggerated but it would be annoying).  I don’t need/want Gilder charging in trapping already slow traditional mages like Azzen’Ka (my favorite character) on the map... I just think bigger shields with less CC prominence would make him feel more like, well, a TANK. Tanks in my opinion should get close by taking hits and then hugging their enemy and leave zooming around to assassins like Murad or Nakroth.  So while I agree with less CC, I would prefer Shield > Charge. Keep in mind Gilder only needs to pin down the mage/ADC and about 2 other characters for great value. Most balanced traditional mages don’t have a means of escaping Gilder except for Flicker....a whopping 120 sec CD.

Decrease her mana usage for all her skills. Look at her competition: Arthur and WW, it’s not like they even USE mana. Considering I would take Thane for his CC over Astrid and Taraa can become nearly immortal, I think it’s fair Astrid can at least stay on the field without stealing jungle.

I await the lower ability CD XD. This maybe what I’ve been looking for.

Diaochan’s S2 skill is in a delicate place. In teamfights it’s one shot team kill, and in Laning it’s a signal flare or a nice trap for the newer players.  I’m on board with much lower CD and Mana cost with a slightly higher firming time so I can fire off 2 of her S2 skills and make my opponents have to dance around near instant death (with her S3). It’s still a decent deterrent in any case. Initially I was more for something basic like increasing her S1 skill damage in exchange for S2 damage since it’s not like her S2 skill hits half the time :-|

(To be continued....later)

Edit: Where can I find the news of the new update? I was only able to see the disappointment which was April 12th (still can’t believe they NERFED Krixi’s speed....).
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From_Hell| From_Hell 5/26/2018 07:18:45
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Rongaulius replied at 5/25/2018 08:38 AM
Speed buff idea is brilliant.  There’s already one that applies after leaving combat, but it take ...

I’ve looked at the new update and I like what I’m seeing! They even buffed Azzen’Ka! I’m only skeptical about Maganga where it also ost seems more like a change in skill than a buff, but we’ll see.

Onto Ignis. I haven’t tried the build you have suggested, though I have had some fair success with him on my own (long before I began complaining about him).

I build normally:

Berith’s Agony
Flashy Boots
Frosty’s Revenge
Staff of Nuul
Hecate’s Diadem
Boomstick

Allows for some nice sustained damage early on and CC while setting up for heavy true damage later....if I can tag them. My biggest issue with him is that he seems comparablely underpowered from other mages I play.

My issues in order:

Passive - Why does this heal??? Healing a glass cannon role is really pointless and doesn’t exactly help against Assassins, mages, ADC, or tanks with burst....maybe I can use it against Taraa? Marks don’t last long enough.

Skill1- good mana cost, decent damage, speed buff is nice, why a shield? (Won’t complain). Wait, what’s this range? So outside of a lane I have the shortest attack ever. I mean seriously when you get outraged by Veera its sad. (Unless you have a convient Target nearby). I guess I don’t lose much mana missing with this attack.

Skill 2 - everything I want, AOE, damage, cc....except the AOE is smaller than Malroch or Wisps AOE attack and have similar if not weaker CC than both. It’s CD is painful and this skill alone can drain your mana....haven’t even reached skill 3.

Skill 3 - FIREWORKS!!!! It’s an illusionary light display for only 100+ mana!!! Wait. This is supposed to do damage? Maybe if they are marked or are ADC. Oh and they need to be pretty stupid to stand in the radius of the attack since all the playable hero’s are speed demons (Tulen, Superman, Flash, Lauriel, Liliana, Zephys, etc). Does no damage to tanks like Thane or Omega while they nicely murder me in return even if I marked them at point plank range with my 1st skill....


Ignis in a nutshell and everything I have issues with him.

Will get to Lumburr next time....I have a new update to try!
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Rongaulius|  Author| Rongaulius 5/28/2018 11:03:04
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The new update seems to have breathed new life into both Chaugnar and Lumburr.  Had a couple really good matches with each of them, each time using the new Rock Shield as one of the first pieces of gear purchased.  For those two heroes damage output really isn't a concern, so the Rock's damage-lowering doesn't hurt anything and activating the shield gives a massive survivability boost that can be the difference between survival and death.  After that item, for both heroes I built for CD and a bit of CC, followed by more defense and mana.  Worked like a charm.

Ignis isn't as glassy as other mages, really.  He's actually got quite good mobility thanks to his S1, and so if you build to reduce the already-low CD on that skill, he can be almost as fast as some Mage/Assassins.  I tried building for magic power; didn't work.  So I said to myself, "Self, let us try building for Magic Lifesteal to deal ALL OF THE MAGIC DAMAGE and become more durable!".  

That...also didn't work.  

So THEN I said to myself, "Self, what is Ignis actually good at?  His Passive puts Marks on targets and heals him.  None of his abilities have long CD times.  His S1 grants mobility and gives him a shield.  His S2 has CC and decent range.  His Ult deals only moderate damage and can be easily dodged, but it also doesn't require channeling...hmm."

Ignis is strong if you can predict where your enemies are going to go, and fire your S2 to that spot a split-second before they actually reach it.  Which stuns and marks them, setting the stage for both S1 and Ult.  No, neither one deals a ton of damage, but you're steadily chipping away at their HP.  Plus that S2 Stun and S1 speedup make it very difficult for enemies to chase Ignis down if he has to run; that gives Ignis a much better chance of surviving if ambushed, and thus improves his Poke ability.

Hence the build outlined above.  Items 1-3 improve Ability power, CD, HP, and the Apocalypse gives a massive power boost to Ignis's Basic attack (strong against Towers).  That build is good, but there's another one I really like as well:

Zweihander (Mana, Movement speed, Basic Attack deals Magic Damage, Attack speed)
Flashy boots (CD, movement speed)
Apocalypse (more Apility power, hence more overall firepower; CD speed, basic attacks buffed further)
Staff of Nuul (more CD, Magic Pierce)
Frosty's Revenge (The Passive of this item improves Ignis's CC, which makes it easier for him to deal damage)
Hecate's Diadem (Ability power)

That one doesn't have quite as much HP as the other build, but Basic attacks become still more powerful and Movement speed is improved.

Ignis doesn't have the sheer firepower of an Illumia or the mobility of a Lauriel or Tulen, but I think that in his own way he's a very capable mage who has more mobility than a traditional mage and more CC than a magic assassin.  Which translates to good ability to Gank early, and strong support ability in the late team fights.  His Ult is still easy to avoid, but if you trigger it immediately after S2 (before the S2 even lands!), you'll have no trouble hitting a Stunned target.  And in team fights, the large area of the Ult makes it easy to hit massed enemies who are being CC'd or are simply engaged with you teammates.

Seriously, try out the Rock Shield for Lumburr and Chaugnar.  I think you may like it.
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From_Hell| From_Hell 5/30/2018 20:35:54
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Rongaulius replied at 5/28/2018 11:03 AM
The new update seems to have breathed new life into both Chaugnar and Lumburr.  Had a couple really  ...

Rock Shield has been a fun item, one of my personal favorites on Xeniel.

Lumburr is definitely menacing especially in death match as I had a lumber carry nearly 30 points on their own (they got 2nd since partner was dead weight).

I’m loving the new format. I’ve toyed with Chargnar and honestly like what I’m seeing and feeling. Has the same fun aspects as Alice. Recently had some fun in 5v5s running a LEEEEROY JENKINS Omega.

Thoughts on Ignis is he is still not up to scratch as other mages. The clearest way I can draw this example up is via comparison.

In a 1v1 Ignis is practically toast against Tulen/Lauriel/Flash/Raz/Liliana unless he is spastically lucky hitting them and predicting where they are going to teleport too.

In a team fight....Ignis has to be MUCH MUCH closer to the fighting than other traditional mages like Azzen’Ka or Orbit Strike Illumia. While against certain teams this makes no difference, when facing OHKO finishers like Zane’s or Butterfly (or Murad), this can be a formula for disaster and leave your team without a mage.

In addition Ignis doesn’t quiet have a strong enough stun to pull off ambushes like Veera can early game and his range is a bit to short in jungle teamfights. He doesn’t have the acrobatic abilities of mage/assassins (which they need to nerf). I also dislike his lack of constant CC for 2 reasons. 1st CC heavy mages like Azzen’Ka/Illumia/Maganaga* can do substantial damage like Ignis. 2nd Ignis like Krixi fall face flat one the harass mechanic of other mobile or extremely long range mages like mage/assassins or Khali.

*technically Maganga is a Buffer but the sustained damage pairs nicely with Frosty’s Revenge.

Ignis is not unplayable, has the same weaknesses of most mages with a main upside of being slightly more survivable than most traditional mages (I say this since he can’t survive assassins the same way Tulen or Lauriel can). Ultimately I can’t help but feel that I would simply overlook Ignis for stronger mages. Not Ignis’s fault, just the current meta requires a strong hero to be played and Ignis is just comparatively weaker.

Speaking of which I have played him recently and Lifesteal Ignis with a good tank like Arthur is ludicrous. 40+ points most games and definitely 20+.

About the last update. I am impressed overall. Rockshield and the Death March Format have allowed for some characters to really shine that other wise would not get the light of day (who seriously wants to play Lumburr in ranked?). Despite some of the fixes there are underlying issues (when will Violet actually be seriously nerfed?). First the elimination of endure and the addition of the item with endures properties has left me with some mixed feelings. While Endure now effectively takes up an item slot, I am not certain how I feel about facing Tulen with Endure AND Flicker (or Purify). I am also really disappointed with the active item for AD since warriors/tanks are excluded.....

What are your thoughts?

Note on Ignis Combo: First it defeats the main bonus of the Ult (the TRUE DAMAGE) to set it off on an enemy stunned by his 2nd skill since the 2nd skill removes the mark. Second, other mages like Azzen’Ka can do similar if the enemy is engaged with your teammates. Third he does not have more CC than Lauriel, Flash or Liliana. Flash and Ignis have 1 CC a piece (Flashes Ult and Ignis’ S2). Liliana has more CC between her 6 skills (I think S3 fox mode slows) and Lauriel also has equal or more CC between her S1 and S3.
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Rongaulius|  Author| Rongaulius 5/31/2018 07:05:57
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I think I'll like DM after a while, but I find partners too unpredictable (unless I'm squadding with the wife).

I think I've already mentioned that I'm a big fan of the Rock Shield for Lumburr and Chaugnar.  Don't often run many ranged heroes so haven't used their new item, and...I never used the Endure talent to begin with.  I'd rather use Purify and just escape; those talents had similar cooldowns, I believe, and to me it never made any sense to temporarily become immortal at the cost of abilities and mobility.  Though, I do tend to value mobility over other attributes, so that may have something to do with it.

That being said, the new Mage item doesn't strike me as being particularly dangerous just yet.  It does offer a decent Ability power boost, but in terms of passive abilities I simply don't see too many Magic Assassins equipping it with any good effect.  If anything, I think it's an item for a traditional Mage to use to use late in the game while in range of towers, to either defend against tower-bombing or else get in that last team-wiping/tower-killing shot.  Maybe I'll be convinced otherwise after seeing it in action, but I just can't see any good outcome from a mobility-based hero sacrificing their bread and butter for the sake of temporary survivability.

Yeah, I definitely agree Ignis really isn't anything special.  I think he's one of those heroes that I like for no particular reason, and because I like him I've messed with him enough that I've found a few ways to be at least moderately effective.  Ignis is certainly a less-powerful hero, but he's not inherently a team liability.  And while you're right about the combos, eh, I don't really notice.  Mainly because at 24 seconds, his Ult has one of the shortest CD's of any Mage.  Mganga and Veera both come in at 18 seconds, and Liliana's Ult CD is only 8s; however Liliana's Ult is more a mode-change than a damage-dealing attack, and Mganga's Ult is very far from being Mganga's defining skill.  Veera and Mganga's Ults are both limited by range.  Ignis doesn't have outstanding range on his Ult, but it's better than quite a few.  And it doesn't have to be channeled.

And.  If you use Ignis's S2 as your initiating attack, follow up with the Ult, and then use S1 to deal some more damage and escape, you avoid the True Damage loss because...his Ult takes 1s to actually fire, thus his Passive has time to trigger.

Again, I don't say any of this to extol Ignis as a hidden gem.  I do agree that he's not as strong as many other mages.  But when compared with other traditional mages, he's also not really very weak and he does have some surprising strengths.  His S1, for example, uses only 40 mana and has a 3s CD; only Ilumia and Liliana have S1's as low in mana cost, and Liliana's S1 has a 6-sec CD.  Once built, you can spam Ignis's abilities at ridiculous rates.  And even early on, you can fight for a long time without running out of mana.  Ignis's true strength, I think, lies in the overall low cost and CD of his skills, coupled with his mobility and CC.  Even though his Ult may not deal the most damage, you can fire it far more often than any other Ult that deals similar damage.  And his S1 can be used extensively early in the game without depleting mana too fast.

All that being said...no, he's still not the most damaging hero.  I like him just because he's unpopular and not all that bad, and his abilities fit my playstyle very well.  I think that's all.  ;)

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From_Hell| From_Hell 5/31/2018 09:32:34
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Rongaulius replied at 5/31/2018 07:05 AM
I think I'll like DM after a while, but I find partners too unpredictable (unless I'm squadding with ...

I also like generally unpopular characters and play enough of them to understand why most do not bother to play them (I even purchased Nakroth for this).

Small correction about Maganga S3 is that it has a fair radius especially when considering it adds DOT and is larger than Krixi’s S3....while the AOE can’t be set like Ignis it’s no slacker for targeting whole teams (I like Maganga a lot).

I have only seen the new mage item used well once on a Tulen. The main idea behind Endure was that it was a multi purpose move made for specific situations. Situation 1 would be to avoid a heavy hit like a combo from a character like Natalya or Ignis. Situation 2 would be to allow for your skills CD to drop or allow mobility skills to recharge like on Tulen or Lauriel. Situation 3 is a bit rarer but on coordinated teams it’s not too surprising to see characters using Endure to wait for teammates to help (escpecially with Lauriel who will quickly follow up with her Ult). Situation 4 is rarer and I think only players who run heavy CC effects will see (like Azzen’Ka) is to wait out the CC effect. I noticed some Tulens doing this when Tulen was the best mage in the game and it was annoying. Situation 5 is to force a retarget in teamfights when you face pin point assassins/finishers like Zanis or Butterfly this is kind of like situation 1 to avoid a fatal blow except I have seen it done earlier than nessecary so I will count it as another use of the skill. Situation 6 is the last situation I can think of and that’s to juke opponents you are fleeing from by running into the grass and then using that skill.  This is so the grasses hide effect can take place and then you can move in an unpredictable direction. I’ve also seen careless teammates waltz by an enduring half dead opponent much to my chagrin.

Endure was a very versatile skill that I despised more than utilized due to my focus on less mobile characters (Maganga, Diaochan, Azzen’Ka).

I agree that DM partners can very greatly, Ive played with people who seem to have just started the game and I’ve also played with people who are close to being in the Conquer ranked division. I normally find that after cycling through a few players I do not get along with I will find one I can synergies well with. The trick from there is to quickly friend and continue to play with them. There will be some tough match ups and you won’t win every game but this can help you make some solid in game friends for DM.

Hope that (the last part) helps
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